Dev Diary #12

[Miguel Preguisa 443]

I experienced paid content (cosmetic or not) only in a few of games I played. But I quite liked the concept of now non-existing Roblox tickets alias "tix". You could earned it really slowly when playing the game and you get them different ways possible. They were free, but the exchange rates for actual in game currency were really quite high. But with a "free currency", people like me not used to pay for extra content could buy at least one little thing in the shop. Of course not anything else, but it than had even bigger value for them. Or people who made a great thing could charge for it nearly nothing. When a lot of people liked it and buyed it, it became something. It's not longer existing feature, but I like this concept. Have you considered something like this?

Edited July 15, 2017 by Miguel Preguisa

[WijkagentAdrie 384]

Although I'm only 25, I have played a lot of early access games, mostly sandbox. One question I haven't asked yet is why the coyns system? To me it feels like an over complicated system. I feel that players are willing to spend extra money on DLC, as long as they can have access to all content available for a reasonable price.

Edit: I'd be willing to spend roughly €20 a year (more if the amount of content is huge) for a season pass as long as this gives me all content available.

Adrie

Edited July 15, 2017 by WijkagentAdrie

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

@Miguel Preguisa Good point. Yes, I know about Tickets and you're right that they are one of the possible solutions - unfortunately, they are quite far from being an ideal one and without going into details the most important indicator as to whether this is the right way to go is that Roblox (which is in many ways similar to us) found out that it wasn't really working for them and removed them from the game. Some of the reasoning behind the removal can be found here

[Myrik Greene 49]

Just a side note related to this: we plan to have various cosmetic items to be possible to obtain via playing the game (many of them only through playing) and we also plan to allow trading of some types of cosmetic items (but not avatars for example) between players. So there will be other options how to get them other than paying: play to get a rare item, trade it with others that may have purchased items you are interested at but not willing to spend money for it.

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

@WijkagentAdrieIt's true that DLCs are a viable monetization for many games out there, but we feel it's not really a good one for Ylands.

We are now releasing new large updates roughly every six-seven weeks (unless something big like the current big immediate team growth happens) each containing a lot of smaller and bigger features. We believe these features to be the essential part of the game and I think it would be extremely unfair to keep asking money for things like boats, cars, weather system... We want to keep giving you these features regularly and for free because we feel that by purchasing the game you are entitled to have the complete experience (and we still have a long way ahead of us before we will be able to call it that). It wouldn't even be technically possible - we have, for example, big plans for Exploration. If everything goes right, in early 2018 you will see that what you play now is just a fragment of what that game has to offer (we will tell you more about our plans for that later this year) and many of future features will be an integral part of Exploration. We also want you, the players, to be able to create sophisticated games without having to think about the fact that some of the players can't use ships, others don't have access to cars etc. Ylands should be the same experience for everyone and we believe that giving important things for free, while charging for things such as a glowing version of a sword is the right way to go.

Another option would be to keep releasing features for free and release paid DLCs consisting just of objects and upgrades ("packs"). That doesn't make much sense as well since most player's needs will be satisfied with thousands of free objects that are coming into the game and if they decide to buy something even so, it will be just the specific thing they want. If they like a certain statue because they want to have it in their living room, they will buy just this one object. If someone crafts a nice sword, decides, that they will be using it for some time and will want to improve it, it will always be better solution for them to go and buy a visual upgrade just for that sword for few coyns than having to buy some larger pack that contains it for a large sum. We believe that players who decide to pay something extra should be paying only for things they know they need or going to use. 

You are right that the concept behind coyns is more complex than just going with simple DLCs but bear in mind that coyns are not meant to be used only for the purchases of objects, but they will be a way for players to create great, complex games, maintain and enhance them while getting something in return. They are also an integral part of some of our plans with dedicated servers.

[Hurricane43 36]

1 hour ago, Myrik Greene said:

Just a side note related to this: we plan to have various cosmetic items to be possible to obtain via playing the game (many of them only through playing) and we also plan to allow trading of some types of cosmetic items (but not avatars for example) between players. So there will be other options how to get them other than paying: play to get a rare item, trade it with others that may have purchased items you are interested at but not willing to spend money for it.

Something like a centralized point of interest on the Yland in each persons game world would be an interesting idea for the coyns and the trading system you just mentioned. With the trading system it adds another layer for the player to decide if they want to trade a rare item, etc with someone, perhaps purchase coyns, or see an  item they want to purchase. The store could be the hub where all this takes place as a point of interest on the map instead of going to lets say the main menu. 

Being on the island i think would give it more of a flavor, and have many options for players such as a trading system, describing in detail what the weapons, items are with some sort of 3D view of each item. The store could work for instance that I place an item for trading and can scroll through what items i like or want and decide on my own what i want to trade or purchase, or it could also have a layer like an auction? The store could be a small log cabin filled with different rooms for weapon stands, armor stands, decals, and/or paintings that are already placed on the wall and have the player be able to interact with the weapons, items and see a description of each item. For example a rare item would have a little description, its durability, with skills attached to it, something that tells the player, mmmm I really like weapon, let me coyn this item. Don't use the word "purchase"

The rare item such as a sword can have a flaming or shocking attachment to it, in which the regular weapon doesn't. It can have stats also attached to it..

In my opinion if its just a menu with coyns purchasable, weapon and armor skins it would hurt marketing a lot i think. I think it needs to jazzed up and something that has some layers of interaction to it, and this store can be a total hub for players even to go too... Even if the store cant be on the Yland as a point of interest, maybe have it as a place to teleport to from ingame or the main menu. But i dont think having just a click this button for weapons, items, coyns on the main menu would work, this would be harmful i think to marketing. It needs to something interactive and futuristic than just a main menu screen. 

Regardless of the stages and implementation just be very wary of how it will be received by some gamers that just see coyns, omg this is pay2win i told you.

I would love to talk about engines and the next update now... But this is a topic that is greatly needed for feedback and discussion. 

[Lukeocyte 2]

Hi guys,

Like others I'm also a bit skeptical about Coyns. Also like others my hope is to run a private server someday where myself and the rest of the group have a fair amount of control of the content within the server and wonder how this will affect this. I have a couple of questions regarding this:

- In addition to renting your Bohemia run servers with Coyns will you also still give us the option to run our own server without the Coyn charge?

- I assume someday the modding in Ylands will allow us to control how and what items players are able to craft. Ie. some recipes may require completing a quest or Ylandium gear may not be craftable at all if it doesn't fit the server's setting. If that's true how would this work with cosmetic items that other players have already purchased?

- As a server admin or scenario creator would we be able to control which items are allowed on the server/scenario?

- On a side note... any idea on when we might hear of more details on what we can do to mod Ylands?

[MJxo 3]

Will this Coyns system effect single player? 

[Hurricane43 36]

21 hours ago, MJxo said:

Will this Coyns system effect single player? 

I dont think they will at all, if they did it would damage the game in my opinion.... 

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

Hi guys,

from what you're asking it seems that many of you see coyns as something that we will be charging everyone for everything - which can't really be further from the truth :). I believe that many of you won't really feel the impact of the monetization system at all.

Since there are actually several topics we're discussing here, I will create an official structured FAQ about monetization that will be regularly updated to answer your questions - I'd like to have it online sometime tomorrow (I will let you know in here when that happens). In its first version, it should (hopefully) answer all the questions you had so far in here.

This thread will obviously stay open indefinitely so that you can keep asking additional questions and whenever there's something not covered by that FAQ we will discuss it and add it there for everyone to see. 


 

[Achilles77 20]

2 hours ago, Aleš Ulm said:

Hi guys,

from what you're asking it seems that many of you see coyns as something that we will be charging everyone for everything - which can't really be further from the truth :). I believe that many of you won't really feel the impact of the monetization system at all.

Since there are actually several topics we're discussing here, I will create an official structured FAQ about monetization that will be regularly updated to answer your questions - I'd like to have it online sometime tomorrow (I will let you know in here when that happens). In its first version, it should (hopefully) answer all the questions you had so far in here.

This thread will obviously stay open indefinitely so that you can keep asking additional questions and whenever there's something not covered by that FAQ we will discuss it and add it there for everyone to see. 


 

Hey Ales, on a bit of a different note, I hope the planned update for the end of the month will have some new items and crafting (other then the cars and engines) in exploration to mess around with, been holding off playing so I dont get everything done at once

Edited July 17, 2017 by Achilles77

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

@Achilles77 At the end of this week there should be (finally! :)) yet a Sneak Peek published about the upcoming update - there I'll go over what you can expect in detail.

[Shadow72 187]

My only concern with the coyns system is that you guys may limit the capability that mods will have for custom models/textures.

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

@Shadow72 I'm not sure I quite follow... Could you maybe elaborate a bit on what you're afraid is going to happen?  Thanks!

[Shadow72 187]

1 hour ago, Aleš Ulm said:

@Shadow72 I'm not sure I quite follow... Could you maybe elaborate a bit on what you're afraid is going to happen?  Thanks!

If you do introduce the cosmetic items a lot of people will want them but not everyone will want to pay for them. With mods planned to be able to have custom models/textures there will be some guy that puts the cosmetics into a mod and distributes it. The two ways to combat that issue is to either make mods not be able to modify models/textures or to try and take them down off of the workshop when they appear. The problem with taking them down is if someone already has it downloaded it will not be removed from their game and people can get around the workshop by uploading the mod to a external file sharing website. The mod would only appear visible to the player who has it downloaded though, but if you guys plan to have server mods work the same it can turn into a even bigger issue.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Shadow72

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

@Shadow72 Oh, now I understand, thanks for clearing that up for me! Sorry for the delayed reply, we're being quite busy these days

If someone starts releasing items we're selling as their own mods we would probably step in and take some action - but that is about the only case I can think of where we would intervene.  If players create their own variants of items we sell and share them for free or sell them for coyns - it's perfectly fine with us.  Actually, we kind of hope some will be able to come with something even better (we've already seen some pretty awesome things created by players) :). We introduced Workshop so that players would eventually have access to lots of user created content so we certainly won't be limiting the creators in any way.

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

Hi,

I keep working on the Monetization FAQ, trying to include an answer to every relevant question while describing even some of the features we and technical details and solutions we haven't mentioned yet. Unfortunately, the combination of the rapid team growth induced overhead (which is, thank god, just temporary :)) and the upcoming update being very close doesn't let me put enough time into it. Also, we are still discussing some of the details which I believe should be added in that FAQ to give you the whole picture. Since with the update getting near there's less and less time for this I decided to put the creation of the FAQ on hold before the update is released - also at that time some of the details I mentioned should be finalized. The update should be released in about two weeks. I'm sorry to keep you waiting but I believe it will be for the best. Thank you for your understanding.

This doesn't mean in any way that the discussion needs to stop - quite on the contrary. Feel free to ask anything in here and I will do my best to answer all your questions.

[Lukeocyte 2]

Thanks for letting us know Definitely appreciate you needing to prioritize and understand it may take a bit of time to get the FAQ clear since a lot of us are interested in the topic.

If you know the answer to this already, my biggest question was whether private server admins would be able to regulate which content is allowed on their server?

I could imagine making a themed fantasy server where high tech content was limited (ylandium gear etc.) to keep immersion. However, if a player purchased some visual content that was sci-fi or high tech either from Bohemia or 3rd party and logged on to the server it would break the immersion. Seems to me like it would be more beneficial to allow server admins and scenario creators to control what content is allowed.

[Hurricane43 36]

I would agree Ales with fully concentrating on the upcoming update as the FAQ for coyns can wait. 

Take your time with the FAQ, i dont see any rush with it, rathet see a nice dev diary for upcoming update, something nice an juicy as far as details.

Id rather have details on daily meetings and or a topic dedicated to it to keep such important things transparent.

 

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

Thanks for your patience, guys!

Let me just go quickly over some things I haven't replied to so far that will be part of the FAQ - but with it still days away there's no need for you to wait for your answers longer than necessary.

@Lukeocyte As for us charging you coyns for running your own server: not only we won't charge you anything - we actually want to give you an option to earn coyns by running your own servers. Also, as long as the server is yours, you can run anything you wish there. Right now players who run the game have very limited control over what is allowed in their games, how the worlds and their rules are set up, but that will change in future.

@MJxo Unless you decide to get something from the Workshop (a game, composition) that its creators are asking money for, or buy some thing like a special "skin" for your weapon or such you won't have to worry about coyns in any way in your SP game.
 

[Arlie 4]

I like how ANOTHER company tries paid mods as if the previous attempts had been completely forgotten. Apart from the fact you're damaging the modding scene it will also damage your reputation immensely.

It is the same argument every single time. 'We give modders options, it will improve quality.' No. You monetize their work and they have the option to say yes or no. You get a share, Valve gets a share. Most modders do not want to get paid. If some get paid, the workshop will be flooded with free mods by people who did not make them in order to monetize them. Legally it makes mod packs close to impossible. Modders constantly use content of other modders in their own mods - with their permission - that's another clusterfuck they cannot get around if some mods are monetized. If I were to pay for a mod, I want it to work. There is no real quality control on the workshop. You cannot force a modder to keep updating their mod for years even if people paid for it. What do you do if a paid mod needs an update but you cannot get a hold of the modder or they are simply unwilling to comply? 

Do you honestly believe you can pull something off Bethesda couldn't? Unlike Ylands Fallout and TES almost RELY on mods to function. Or is that what you're counting on? Less publicity for a smaller game, you might get away with it? Best case for you: You destroy the scene before it develops.

I do not like this. It makes me sick. I think it's a stupid idea and I cannot fathom how people still think it could work.

I'll tell you what works and looks less like a cash grab, TWI did this for Killing Floor: They took high quality content from modders, integrated it into the game and made it dlc. How much of that the modders were paid I do not remember, but I hope it was most of it. I mean the dlc sucks but there is quality control, the company took responsibility for the content, the content is on every client and it's definitely the right modders getting paid.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Arlie

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

You think that statement 'We give modders options, it will improve quality' is not true. We believe it is. Bohemia Interactive has been around for some time and I'd say we have some experience when it comes to modding (Arma 3 anyone?  ) so forecasting that we will "destroy the modding scene before it develops" (as the best case, as you put it ) might be a bit premature. I think the problem is in how you see the Workshop (or at least it seems to me). 

The Workshop will very likely be a mix of paid and free creations, there will be both things simple and sophisticated, small and huge, perfectly working and those broken. From what you state at the end it seems you're afraid that those who will get paid will not be the "right modders" - but they will be. Because of you and other players who will rate the creations, who will keep returning to those who will be creating nice, working things and supporting them by subscribing their creations for free or coyns. There are many examples of places that do exactly that and are thriving (so that we don't go far - take a look at Unity's Asset Store).

Why should we make sure or force in any way paid mod's creators to update their creation? Free market basics will do that - once again that's what your votes (and/or your wallet) are for.  If people like it, if they download it and use it the creators will very likely keep updating it.  And if they don't - they won't. It's their right just as yours is not to use their creation. 

I don't see where is the comparison of Ylands with Bethesda's games coming from - we released just the general outline of our monetization plans with no details whatsoever so comparing us to them doesn't seem relevant nor fair. And we're certainly not trying to "get away with something" - we're here, the actual devs including me, discussing with you our plans in advance ;).

[Arlie 4]

36 minutes ago, Aleš Ulm said:

You think that statement 'We give modders options, it will improve quality' is not true. We believe it is. Bohemia Interactive has been around for some time and I'd say we have some experience when it comes to modding (Arma 3 anyone?  ) so forecasting that we will "destroy the modding scene before it develops" (as the best case, as you put it ) might be a bit premature. I think the problem is in how you see the Workshop (or at least it seems to me). 

The Workshop will very likely be a mix of paid and free creations, there will be both things simple and sophisticated, small and huge, perfectly working and those broken. From what you state at the end it seems you're afraid that those who will get paid will not be the "right modders" - but they will be. Because of you and other players who will rate the creations, who will keep returning to those who will be creating nice, working things and supporting them by subscribing their creations for free or coyns. There are many examples of places that do exactly that and are thriving (so that we don't go far - take a look at Unity's Asset Store).

Why should we make sure or force in any way paid mod's creators to update their creation? Free market basics will do that - once again that's what your votes (and/or your wallet) are for.  If people like it, if they download it and use it the creators will very likely keep updating it.  And if they don't - they won't. It's their right just as yours is not to use their creation. 

I don't see where does the comparison of Ylands with Bethesda's games is coming from - we released just the general outline of our monetization plans with no details whatsoever so comparing us to them doesn't seem relevant nor fair. And we're certainly not trying to "get away with something" - we're here, the actual devs including me, discussing with you our plans in advance ;).

No, I know for a fact it is not true. Look at literally any modding scene, look at the good and popular mods. First of all, they are free. They are good because people do it as a hobby and they do it for themselves, first and foremost. They want to shape the game into something they enjoy more, that is why they mod.

Introduce monetization into the equation and anyone who wants to monetize will aim to quickly put out content they can monetize. That is the polar opposite of investing a lot of time into high quality content.

Strange of you to reference Arma 3, considering there are no paid mods for that and it pretty much requires a healthy modding scene. Stranger yet, considering the franchise would be far from where it is now if it wasn't for the DayZ mod which essentially popularized a niche game barely anyone knew before. BIS endorsed it by specifically making a free or cheaper edition (can't recall) of Arma 2 which had everything to play DayZ and then advertise OP Arrowhead which improved textures in the mod. For many people it turned out Arma itself was an actually good game, too.

Look, I don't know why you don't remember, because it wasn't that long ago when Bethesda did this exact thing on the steam workshop. They gave modders the option to monetize. Some did, some did not. Many took other people's mods from the nexus, uploaded them to the workshop and monetized them. A tear went through the modding community because it became obvious how some members of it threw ideals out the window for a few steambux. Also can you imagine how it must feel if your content you made for free and uploaded for other people to enjoy is monetized by someone else? How exactly will you prevent that? People would have to copyright their mods, this goes against the very premise of mods and would also be illegal, since it is assets for a game already copyrighted. So you would have to heavily moderate the steam workshop and if someone claims they originally made a mod that is now monetized YOU have to choose to believe them or not to believe them. What if the person monetizing the mod changes it ever so slightly before they monetize it? Do you take it down or do you leave it?

Free market basics? What the fuck. Free market economics is the cause of planned redundancy, lowered quality to increase profit and outsourced labor. Please do not drag actual economics into this.

Again. If I buy a mod for money. Actual money. I am entitled to a working product by law. Should the modder decide to stop updating it, for whatever reason and however unlikely you may find that, who guarantees the product keeps working? Who do I get my refund from? What if someone monetizes a mod which is not theirs and it is taken down? How do you get my money back? Why should they keep working after they've received x amount of money?

I am not interested in arguing about how to do PR, that certainly does not work in a public forum. What I am trying to convey is that this is not just a moral nightmare, it is also a legal one. Make sure your legal department understands how the steam workshop works, that there are other sources for mods and how many claims they could be dealing with.

 

Bethesda ran into all of these problems, combined with a very justified shitstorm. As of now you are on the same course, that is why the comparison came to mind. Modding is a passion, not a profession and that is what shapes it and gives it its potential. If that doesn't convince you it's a bad idea, think of how much this will damage the game's reputation.

[Arlie 4]

Maybe I'll break it down to a few questions for your FAQ:

How do you intend to resolve the issues that made Bethesda's endeavor into this crash and burn?

Who is responsible if monetized content I paid for breaks and/or breaks the game and how do I get a refund which I am legally entitled to in that case?

How can you guarantee the right modders (the ones who created the content) are the only ones who could monetize their content?

And maybe one not for the FAQ:

Is a healthy modding scene a priority for you and if yes then why are you doing this? It really doesn't improve quality. We've seen this before and it goes against the concept of modding and that's not a matter of belief, just history and logic.

[Aleš Ulm 1725]

I never said Arma 3 had paid mods. I wrote that Bohemia Interactive has a lot of experience with modding, nothing more, nothing less.  

However, the most important thing is this - we haven't even implemented mods in the game yet. The monetization will become part of the game long before the players will be able to create the mods. We are having this discussion in advance exactly to present our plans to players and discuss them - especially with people who see things differently. There's plenty of time, nothing is set in stone (and yes, we are not oblivious to what's happening with other games).

Thanks for the questions -  we will do our best to answer them in the upcoming FAQ. In return, however, I would like to ask you to refrain from being unreasonably aggressive, dropping F-words and such. This discussion so far has been nice and civil so let's keep it that way. Ylands (and therefore even the forums) is a meant for kids as well. Thank you.

PS: also just to make sure we're on the same page - you mentioned Steam Workshop several times... Just to make this clear - we are NOT talking about Steam Workshop. We have our own Workshop (shortest way to get there is via ylands.net ) and although it resembles Steam Workshop in many ways we have total control over it and will be improving it so it suits exactly our needs. Even when Ylands hits Steam we will still be using this, not the Steam one :).