The broken promise of Ylands exploration & what the future holds

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

Watch the video here >>

Today I made a video that I found extremely hard to make. We have been watching exploration go off course for 3 years now. I recently saw a comment that said “fingers crossed, they will have these issues fixed in Ylands 0.15.”

It’s coming to Ylands 1.5 and the same issues are present.

In my video I offer four different possible solutions as to why things have gone wrong for a long time:

A) Communication:

Somehow the developers were not getting the message concerning the state of exploration. When I tell people this they are absolutely perplexed as they asked me how this can be? How could the developers not know the situation for so many years?

Sometimes it has to do with a two-fold problem:

A1) A lot of issues are being reported as bugs and the seriousness of the most pressing issues was lost in translation

A2) Sometimes people don't like to be the one to raise their hand and say that something is wrong and maybe that's been the case.

B) Networking: Ylands basically works as a single player game but when you start having more than three people things just don’t hold up and no matter how much the development team wants the game to improve, they may not be able to make it happen.

C) Focus: Ylands has seen its Editor and Mobile grow significantly while exploration has been left behind. This could be because they believe they are able to take on all three tasks at once but in reality the lack of focus has causes none of them to be done well. I realize saying all of this can be hurtful and straightforward and that is absolutely not my intention, I only want the best for this game.

If 1.5 does not bring the changes we are all hoping for, I think taking a serious look at A, B and C could be helpful.

I know that you guys have the best of intentions when it comes to creating this game but I think that it's possible that fundamental reform of the approach is the only way to get this thing back on track.

 

To the community, what do you think the major issues are? @spiritchaser28 @kimbuck @Indomitus @Deadeye_Rob @Miguel Preguisa @Brbrmensch

 

All the best!

Red

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by RedEagle_P1.

[Deadeye_Rob 908]

Overall, a good video highlighting the genuine concern expressed by the community.

I have reserved optimism with the upcoming 1.5. I am looking forward to it and I hope that it repairs the erosion inflicted upon Ylands that, frankly has driven off the majority of dedicated players.

The developer diaries have done little to shore up my optimism however. Since the initial diary initially announcing Update 1.5, all further diaries onward have been mostly or almost entirely about Editor. I wait each week to read the next Dev Diary only to be met with the same ‘eye rolling’ news on how editor is improving.

Now please don’t get me wrong, I value and actively use the Editor. I appreciate its usefulness as a tool to create blueprints that I couldn’t otherwise create legitimately within Exploration. I also respect its power to build games and programs. But my exposure to Editor has only come from playing exploration.

I also appreciate that it’s not easy or fast, to produce a masterpiece. But if improving the direction of Exploration is the primary policy, then please let’s hear it more!  

[kimbuck 746]

What i am afraid of  is history repeating... we get this    'updater"  just before a major   holiday  period ..it  will bring in lots of  new  shiny stuff with  possible   inherent  bugs .... fix  very little of  whats   broken and   we players  will act as  game  testers  struggling  with  bugs and   drop outs   server issues  and  whatever ...  and there will be  no one  at  Bi  able to help as they will be on holidays.  In Jan we  will  get the promise of a  'hotfix"   ... which eventually  emerges just before the  Easter holidays

 

... and then .... go back and read this  post  from the  start ..  and replace  Easter  with  Christmas  2021..

I am still wondering who  is  now  running this game ...  i suspect  tencent,  and if  so ,,,, well time to move elsewhere...

 

 

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

14 hours ago, kimbuck said:

 we players  will act as  game  testers  struggling  with  bugs and   drop outs   server issues  and  whatever

I would love to see a more robust approach to fixing bugs before they release the content from the dev team. That's sometime I should have mentioned in the video imo. Serious internal testing of multiplayer features is key. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by RedEagle_P1.

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

3 hours ago, Deadeye_Rob said:

Since the initial diary initially announcing Update 1.5, all further diaries onward have been mostly or almost entirely about Editor. I wait each week to read the next Dev Diary only to be met with the same ‘eye rolling’ news on how editor is improving.

I love the editor and run an editor community but I can tell you great explore is what will drive up the editor community more than competitions will. I think that should be the hardcore focus. Testing explore rather than new editor features would be a good use of time for anyone working on those features (imho, I am not an expert). 

Edited December 2, 2020 by RedEagle_P1.

[bobo198312 121]

i bought the game over a year ago because i watched a youtuber play it and thought it looked like a pretty fun game never knew there was an editor till after i got it and even then never payed any attention to it because i just wanted to play the game i saw that there where online servers but i played singleplayer to learn how the game worked and thought i do the online server after that never got around to it till about five months ago thats how i found P1 and join then a few months ago started in the editor but it still not my main focus for Ylands i still rather play the game so all the stuff there doing for the editor is nice but i just dont care about it id like for them to just fix the game add more people to the server and for them to make it more fun. i would like to apologize to @Adam Snellgrove and the game davs for being rude i really dont have room to talk that way for being as new to the game as i am and would just like to say sorry the game is really fun and will love to see what else you come out with in the future and really like whats coming out in 1.5

Edited December 16, 2020 by bobo198312
apologize

[Adam Snellgrove 1451]

We took offence from your Feedback? I do not remember this ? We take all feedback on board and very seriously.

The sentence with not having to build your home time and time again is in reference, that you won't have to restart your Exploration over and over again, because you already Explored everything and have nothing to do. In the new Exploration, you'll just go on more adventures ?

And as for losing your progress, that is not an issue of Exploration but of the Editor and Custom maps. This is mainly, as I've mentioned in other posts and to you personally, because Exploration and Custom Games were not designed to be MMO's with 8 players over the course of weeks and months but shorter experiences. This shouldn't be a problem in official Exploration, where you play on your own or with a couple of your friends and especially now, when Exploration will be divided in smaller bite-size maps, that you'll be able to travel between of. But the game, unfortunately, has it's limits in respect to what you are trying to do on your servers, which is recreate Exploration for free for players with a lot of scripting for a lot of players for a long period of time. Those kind of servers then start to be unstable and essentially crash or "rollback". 

But this shouldn't be a huge problem in official Exploration when playing peer-to-peer, on sharegames or even on rented servers and hopefully shouldn't be a problem at all in the new official Exploration coming out in 1.5 and being perfected in 1.6.

Also you mentioned, that in the FAQ we did with Aleš, it broke your heart, that he answered he is most excited to see imported bit maps into the Editor for Update 1.5. Well he actually said that he is excited for two things. Importing images into the Editor and Exploration and how he wants to make it great again, so I hope that ubreaks your heart ??❤️ The FAQ itself was then predominantly about Exploration also ?

The FAQ itself: 

 

And Exploration very much is our focus right now, but since we do not want to fire our Editor team in the meantime ? they are also still making content for the Editor.

Hope this alleviates some worries you might have had and clears up some misunderstandings ? 

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

2 hours ago, Adam Snellgrove said:

The sentence with not having to build your home time and time again is in reference, that you won't have to restart your Exploration over and over again, because you already Explored everything

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

We have to restart Exploration because we cannot dig, eat, build, see what other people have placed down, placed things on ships within a short time of playing. We have been trying to say this now with a  significant  number of posts for years. The game is fundamentally broken, we are talking about stock explore. 

We have had a party that ended within four hours of gameplay on exploration because the world died.

The fact that you are not aware of the size and scope of this issue is  concerning and if it’s true, should be a wake up call to change up the systems and processes regarding communication, how bugs are passed along and how criticism is absorbed within the company.

In my research it seems to be a frequent problem within bohemia interactive games with many people who come from different bohemia interactive titles simply writing off Ylands right away.

 

2 hours ago, Adam Snellgrove said:

, but since we do not want to fire our Editor team in the meantime

Honestly, I would have them do a bug testing on a larger scale with the exploration because once the  exploration  is fixed you’re going to have tons of people helping with the development of smaller games. Of course I’m not an expert here and you have to make your own decision clearly but I really think the situation with exploration is urgent.

Here is a reply to the video talking about how this guy is hosting in two hours and seeing the many bugs and then having too many issues to continue:

Edited December 4, 2020 by RedEagle_P1.

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

@spiritchaser28 @SandyT @bojo2736 @Deadeye_Rob @kimbuck And many others can confirm for you what I’m saying about exploration not working in its native state.

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

I am asking and gathering feedback for you on this:

[Sprout 38]

I am sure their idea was, if they attracted talented "Creators" then the players would follow.  However I really think they got that absolutely backwards. If they had a great game that was also easy to mod -- as examples, Morrowind or Minecraft or even Rimworld -- then the popularity of the game will naturally attract modders/creators  adding to the overall success of the game.  But not the other way around. It doesn't matter how good the editor is, if the basic gameplay is flawed and buggy and broken then it is useless to think creators are going to come along and somehow magically save it.  I suspect most of the best creators, such as Red Eagle, originally came for the game and then stayed for the editor. But that game is gone, now.

 

6 hours ago, Adam Snellgrove said:

And Exploration very much is our focus right now, but since we do not want to fire our Editor team in the meantime ? they are also still making content for the Editor. 

The game started as an Exploration game. What did you do with your original "Exploration" staff the past many years, when the editor was taking full attention at all turns and the game was literally falling apart? Did you keep your full dev team over the past few years while focusing on creators? Or did you let them mostly all go and hire instead the current editor team? Who I am sure are all perfectly nice people but I really wish some of your hesitation at not firing staff, had also applied to the original team of developers who designed the original game. Someone high up apparently thought they were no longer important or worth saving jobs for. 

I am still hopeful for 1.5, because I would like to see one day that game again that I originally fell in love with, many years ago. Long before Steam. Long before free to play. Over the past few years, it has decayed and been neglected.

 

My hope for 1.5 is that they reverse their mistakes, and focus on players and gameplay first and creators second.  I tried out the test editor for the beta but it is, alas, clearly (again) designed for the creators not the players. I can't save and if I try to edit in a boat to test sailing, I get stuck in the edge-of-the-world 10 feet from shore. So clearly not yet ready for me to do any testing, which is ok.  I can be patient, but you may have already lost your window of opportunity in attracting players. A lot who left, have moved on to better things and it may not be possible to lure them back, especially if they see your priorities are STILL backwards.

Fix the game first, please. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Sprout

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

1 hour ago, Sprout said:

if the basic gameplay is flawed and buggy and broken then it is useless to think creators are going to come along and somehow magically save it.

Agreed. 

1 hour ago, Sprout said:

focus on players and gameplay first and creators second

I really believe that polishing the gem of explore will create a vibrant creator community. I lead the largest and at one point the only group of creators in Ylands and the #1 reason people leave our creator group is the state of explore. 

1 hour ago, Sprout said:

Who I am sure are all perfectly nice people

Imo from calls with them they really are, @Aleš Ulm is super passionate and loves the players and the community. We are all in the same boat here just trying to steady it and see this thing succeed. 

I have decided to be outspoken because being silent did not help so i am trying other options ? I thank all those who have the courage to graciously help the project in a non-toxic and constructive way like you @Sprout. 

 

I hope 1.5 delivers but I worry the fundamental problem has to do with communication, testing and focus, not passion. 

 

[Mello1223 591]

what for is it good to dramatize things like this ??? the developers know well what to do, and they do it well ..Proof of this are the prizes they have won..many people forget that the editor makes this game a unique game that has no real competition...you had enough time to ask your community of 20,000people to give a better feedback as far as the survey is concerned..focus more on testing the exploratory part of the game and providing relevant feedback than creating conspiracies..Since you still brag that your community has 20,000 members, I believe you will find at least 1,000 people who will be able to actively test the new version of the game using a beta test, and the rest of the people can complete games for the competition .. you have enough people, so use them .then you may not have to cry on this fore for losing the possibility of financial profit.

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

1 hour ago, Mello1223 said:

what for is it good to dramatize things like this ??? the developers know well what to do, and they do it well ..Proof of this are the prizes they have won..many people forget that the editor makes this game a unique game that has no real competition...you had enough time to ask your community of 20,000people to give a better feedback as far as the survey is concerned..focus more on testing the exploratory part of the game and providing relevant feedback than creating conspiracies..Since you still brag that your community has 20,000 members, I believe you will find at least 1,000 people who will be able to actively test the new version of the game using a beta test, and the rest of the people can complete games for the competition .. you have enough people, so use them .then you may not have to cry on this fore for losing the possibility of financial profit.

I find this comment to be quite personal, vicious and unnecessary. We are having a civil and up-building discussion on how to improve the game. If you have issues with me personally, you can take that up in the DM's. 

Let's remain on topic. 

[kimbuck 746]

Some of us have  stuck with  Ylands, because we had   hope .  We spent  hours and  hours  struggling with the bugs ...and sending in logs etc   for the benefit of the game. In one instance i spent  two whole days trying to play  the game and  sending in bug  reports   every  time the game  crashed after 20  minutes ...  thats a lot of   logs  and   waiting  to get back in! connection time outs ... disappearing  objects   and work stations ..or  simply  " shut down  for  no apparent  reason"  wit  a restart and  20  minutes lost  work.

But i am not  alone ..   others were  doing it too , but unfortunately a lot  just either did not have the time and patience  and simply  gave  up ...especially  as there was little   to no feedback  from BI.

The  P1   community has given  feedback   ....lots if it .. but  has  anyone at  BI  noticed?   Whats  frustrating  is to  send in  reports and they disappear   down  a black  hole  somewhere. ... no  feed back  was obvious  and  disheartening.  Thankfully   Adam   has responded to correct that recently, but there was a time  when there was "the  great silence"  and players  deserted  en masse.  

These  bugs  being mentioned now are   in the basic   game .    There's an exploit  that was ruining the game  that  we reported   to Ane   ( remember her?  that was looooong  ago ...)  ...yet i still see that exploit  today despite  a  comment  it  was fixed.  If you  don't  know  what this  exploits is, then that proves a point .  No one   paid any attention  to the players   then...and  it  might  be too late  now.

As it is the game dies from bugs  as it progresses.  You start to  move out to explore,  but all these  glitches   start to  multiply .. and  the  only   fix  is to wipe and restart.  But these days  all the  maps  re the same,  so it  ends  up like   groundhog  day.

 I am currently  marking time to see what 1.5 achieves.   I still have  some hope.     Patience is  wearing  thin, though.

 

 

 

[empeorgame3 16]

AS i have saw that ylands is improving >

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

50 minutes ago, kimbuck said:

These  bugs  being mentioned now are   in the basic   game .    There's an exploit  that was ruining the game  that  we reported   to Ane   ( remember her?  that was looooong  ago ...)  ...yet i still see that exploit  today despite  a  comment  it  was fixed.  If you  don't  know  what this  exploits is, then that proves a point .  No one   paid any attention  to the players   then...and  it  might  be too late  now.

As it is the game dies from bugs  as it progresses.  You start to  move out to explore,  but all these  glitches   start to  multiply .. and  the  only   fix  is to wipe and restart.  But these days  all the  maps  re the same,  so it  ends  up like   groundhog  day.

This is the major issue for everyone. There are a boatload of game breaking bugs which have not been fixed for years. We were talking about the most severe form of laggy, problematic and Game breaking bugs in multiplayer. It’s been many years now and nothing has been fixed but we are all hopeful and optimistic for 1.5 And rooting for the entire development team that they are able to pull it off.