The next big step for Ylands

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

My idea with this post is to highlight issues and brainstorm solutions. 

Ever since starting P1 Creators I've been deeply involved in what motivates creators to create awesome creations in Ylands. 

Problem: 

Right now there are several things keeping people from creating: 

1) Hard work is unlikely to be appreciated or rewarded

A) Appreciated:

   a1) There are very few players of Ylands to play games

   a2) There is a general sense that the game is dying, not that I agree at all. People don't want to invest in a game if they feel its not going anywhere and that is how many feel. 

B) Rewarded: 

   b1) Most people don't feel the need for Coyns

   b2) The terms of service is very unfriendly to the idea of doing business in Ylands. 

 

Solutions: 

B) Rewarded: 

   b1) Making Coyns transferable to real funds as planned. Making it so that running a server could be more profitable. 

   b2) Have clear messaging on if you want your creators to earn money or not and if so gear the messaging toward that. 

Other ideas: 

I think improving the workshop bugs can help. Creating ways people can do basic multiplayer tests in editor without needing 7 volunteers is key. Moreover, mobile testing without needing to upload to the workshop would be awesome. 

 

Exploration as key: 

In general I believe that the exploration version of the game is the absolute key to seeing this whole thing take off. The majority of people who create today began by playing exploration and wanting to upgrade their experience using the editor. They soon got hooked on the editor and continued creating and discovered it's incredible power. 

I believe that if we can make servers work really well for exploration it will really bring in a lot more great creators because people love to upgrade the things they're passionate about. 

I have seen Tencent spend close to $100,000 in rewarding creators to create creations but there are several problems with this approach: 

   1) Creators are not incentivised to keep their creations up-to-date leading to many dead         games. 
   2) Creators are really only creating for the money and not passion and therefore will only keep creating for money. 
   3) It hasn’t worked, there are very few players playing the Chinese version of the game. 

I really think that if we can get great exploration servers working as a priority further marketing dollars will develop a committed and passionate audience that will transfer from a great game to an already-great editor. 

Honestly, I don't really play exploration anymore but I really saw how much passion it invoked in those who joined the game back then. When it comes to mini games there's so much stuff on mobile or free to play that it's hard to compete with that stuff via creator-creations as a starting point. 

I see this especially on the mobile version of the game which is frankly amazing, the people play the pizza game and such but dont get it and move on to other mobile games. 
If we started these people in a exploration experience (even if just a demo), I think we would really get people hooked. From there they can move on to greater things and see the full potential of this game. 

@Aleš Ulm @Adam Snellgrove @TomasGestinger @Tomas Palat @Houp

Edited February 9, 2020 by RedEagle_P1.

[Malaka135 17]

I can agree. I started this game when I saw it pop on Steam as an advertisement during the big December release. The exploration was the main thing I saw in the teaser video and it drew me in. I picked up the editor real fast and just had idea after idea of doing things so I began my first game with the idea of potentially making some coyns in return for my effort. I've done server hosting in Gmod which I can see Ylands providing a similar massive list of custom servers/gamemodes to play. The dwindling playerbase is making this seem farther out of reach. 

I do think perfecting Exploration would bring more attention to this game. The most complaints I hear about this game from being in different discords is always something regarding exploration. Personally I don't do exploration as I went into the editor, but I do talk with many players and this is the concern they all seem to share.

[Miguel Preguisa 443]

I'm an old Exploration player. When I thought Ylands, it was Exploration mode. It was being updated every update. But the aim of the updates changed (I know we just got new updates to it. I may sound silly for it now. But they honestly made the Explore a bit more fast and flashy just as a minigame so my next point stands, I believe).

Now it mostly tries to get the Ylands minigames (=> +Editor) right. And I have to ask. 

What is my incentive to launch Ylands with the goal of playing Ylands minigames?

No offense creators. For example the golf was actually fun. But I can't really imagine thinking "I now have some free time to game, let's play some Ylands minigames!". It would have to beat the competition of Minecraft, of Terraria, of No Man's Sky, of Steep, of Red Orchestra. My comparing is not unfair. All those are on the menu when choosing how to spend the evening at PC. And you wouldn't believe, Ylands minigames usually don't win. But in the past, Minecraft didn't stand a chance against some good time in Exploration mode. Neither did Subnautica. Even Kingdom Come and Witcher 3 had to be put aside. I had a farm and smithery to attend to.

I still can enjoy the Explore. There are good things being added to the game. But I feel like the game took a turn (sometime before the #100 Dev Diary) and I'm not particularly enjoying the ride. 

[Adam Snellgrove 1451]

A) Appreciated

a1) As we have discussed, we are planning on a marketing drive halfway through 2020 to boost the player numbers, after we have everything polished and in a state we are really happy with.

a2) I think just through the number of Dev Diaries and updates we put out, it is evident, this game isn't dying but will be around for some time and we are committed to it fully.

B) Rewarded

b1) As you mention...this is planned and will happen in 2020 sooner rather than later.

b2) We mainly want Creators to have fun creating and not take it as a job or a living, but we want them to be able to maybe have some pocket money out of it and a sense of accomplishment through that ?

 

Workshop: Right now, just as we speak, we are in the process of completely overhauling the Workshop and making it a cool tool to work with and much more manageable and intuitive. But it is a HUGE project, that will take a bit of time.

 

As we have discussed before, Exploration is still very much at the centre of development and we have some really cool stuff planned, including making the map expandable, putting in an End-Game, making water behave properly and sharks to bite peoples behinds and a lot more great improvements, so if you're in Ylands only for Exploration, you have a lot to look forward to.

We are also preparing an Exploration Demo, that will be available on PC and Mobile. It will consist of the starting Yland (though a bit upgraded with a few surprises ?), but it will give players a taste of what it's like to get stranded on a deserted Yland.

[RedEagle - P1Gaming.net 25]

a1) I know it’s gonna be tough but fixing the servers will be key in my opinion to keeping the people that we get in via marketing because right now all the people who come in don’t stick around.

a2) I definitely agree with you and I think somehow we need to make sure the community sees this too. Only a small portion is here on the forum so I think may be linking the Dev diaries inside the Game could help.

b2) Can we do something about the terms of service in this regard?

 

I’m very excited about the positive changes @TomasGestinger Will be bringing to the workshop and I think it will make it a much more valuable resource. I also really look forward to this exploration demo and believe that it will really help people understand how much is in this game, especially on mobile.

 

[MyPa553ng3r 72]

I have put way too many hours into this game. 3800 so far.  oof.   I have jumped down the rabbit hole for both sides of the game, both Exploration and the Editor.  I can tell you that the Exploration side is where you will find your diamond.   Exploration is where I have met the most interesting people and found some good friends along the way.  I will never forget the midnight journeys, stories by a campfire to pass the time while trying not to freeze to death, taking turns fishing to stay alive.  These times don't happen in Editor.  Editor feels like Work.  I feel like I should be clocking in and out, punching holes in a card that will end with little to NO return on investment.  Sure, it feels good to hear someone say "thats awesome, how did you do that?"  But at the end of the day, where does that leave you?  And can I say..... I am soooo tired of hearing "wait til the next update"  lol.  It used to be a running joke between me and some of the OG's, but it has become a sad truth.  

Edited February 11, 2020 by MyPa553ng3r

[Adam Snellgrove 1451]

16 hours ago, RedEagle - P1Gaming.net said:

I know it’s gonna be tough but fixing the servers will be key in my opinion to keeping the people that we get in via marketing because right now all the people who come in don’t stick around.

There's so much that'll be able to be done with the servers. Exploration was always meant to be a 1 - 4 player experience, not a persistent MMO for tens and hundreds of people and the servers aren't up to the task. We will do our best to optimize what we can, but there's just so much, that can be done. Hopefully removing the persistent avatars will help with this.

17 hours ago, RedEagle - P1Gaming.net said:

I definitely agree with you and I think somehow we need to make sure the community sees this too. Only a small portion is here on the forum so I think may be linking the Dev diaries inside the Game could help.

That would be nice ? I'll ask, if anything like that is possible.

17 hours ago, RedEagle - P1Gaming.net said:

b2) Can we do something about the terms of service in this regard?

Not sure how the terms of service hinder this ? 

 

[RedEagle - P1Gaming.net 25]

3 hours ago, Adam Snellgrove said:

There's so much that'll be able to be done with the servers. Exploration was always meant to be a 1 - 4 player experience, not a persistent MMO for tens and hundreds of people and the servers aren't up to the task. We will do our best to optimize what we can, but there's just so much, that can be done. Hopefully removing the persistent avatars will help with this.

I appreciate you being honest about that, I really love it when people are honest and upfront. I think that finding a way to make it work would be a absolute game changer for the game. The unstable nature of the servers is pushing away so many people that are so hard to get in the first place. I think you would save so much money If somehow this is figured out. I have the unique privilege of talking with many of the people who come to the game when they first come in and watching them progress and they all say the same thing to me “I will be back once the servers are fixed”. I worry that investing heavily in marketing before fixing this will just lead to people coming in and leaving again. As a community creator I can’t get people to stay more than two weeks in my community because they burn out of the game so quickly. 
 

I know you guys are trying your best and I know some of these things are super hard. 

[Adam Snellgrove 1451]

10 minutes ago, RedEagle - P1Gaming.net said:

I think that finding a way to make it work would be a absolute game changer for the game. The unstable nature of the servers is pushing away so many people that are so hard to get in the first place. I think you would save so much money If somehow this is figured out.

But as I said, Exploration just isn't built to manage an MMO persistent type of game. We'd have to redesign the whole game for that probably. We are working on optimizations, but Exploration is made to be played with 1 - 4 players/friends, not on huge servers and so it will always eventually break if you make it into a big persistent MMO. The removal of persistent avatars will help with server survivability, but this will mostly be great for 'social hubs' or big spaces, where players can move around and do limited stuff, but with Exploration, where everyone, who comes in can build whatever wherever it is a huge strain on the server, that isn't possible to handle long term. It's like wanting a car to fly. Sure it will fly for a bit, if you drive it off a cliff and yes, we can make the cliff higher, so it'll 'fly' longer, but in the end, it will crash, because it wasn't made to fly, but drive on the open road with a couple of friends.

[Michelle M 1]

Jumping in to give some feedback as well.

As someone who purchased Ylands during the Beta before it was free to play, I can say that the online aspect has saved the game for me. Online multiplayer is really the only reason that I even picked this game back up consistently especially once I found P1.

The lack of attention to the multiplayer servers is disheartening but overall the improvements to game-play options that I've seen since the beta are amazing.  Please don't let the online multiplayer aspect suffer, we love the game and just want to be able to play with friends. 

Looking forward to your future improvements!

Thank you :) 
- Juicy
 

[Horemvore 7]

7 hours ago, Adam Snellgrove said:

But as I said, Exploration just isn't built to manage an MMO persistent type of game. We'd have to redesign the whole game for that probably. We are working on optimizations, but Exploration is made to be played with 1 - 4 players/friends, not on huge servers and so it will always eventually break if you make it into a big persistent MMO. The removal of persistent avatars will help with server survivability, but this will mostly be great for 'social hubs' or big spaces, where players can move around and do limited stuff, but with Exploration, where everyone, who comes in can build whatever wherever it is a huge strain on the server, that isn't possible to handle long term. It's like wanting a car to fly. Sure it will fly for a bit, if you drive it off a cliff and yes, we can make the cliff higher, so it'll 'fly' longer, but in the end, it will crash, because it wasn't made to fly, but drive on the open road with a couple of friends.

Sorry to be the one to point this out but, that is why you should not have removed the option for us to host our own server.

[SandyT 129]

Just an observation on how many people are playing a multi-player game right now. The public multi-players total a whole 21 people. We need to have our Nitrado servers back.

[jchob 354]

18 hours ago, Horemvore said:

Sorry to be the one to point this out but, that is why you should not have removed the option for us to host our own server.

I don't get your point.
You just can't have a free private dedicated server anymore to host your own world. There are many millions of games that don't support it aswell.
But you can have your own server if you pay.
Not every game in the world gives you the possibility to have a dedicated server and decide what to do in your own world. You want it, you pay pay for it.

Game was in early access, so you knew things could change. I'm not happy with all changes, but I'm also not unhappy.

People need to start to look, accept and respect all visions. You can't make all people happy.
I have my vision from player, but I also understand their vision as a company. 

Even bread and water are not for free.

Best regards.

Edited February 12, 2020 by jchob

[bojo2736 1016]

@Miguel Preguisa you nailed it. Exploration just feels like a mini game now.  It is so far removed from what it was.  There is no discovery.  The next island is RIGHT THERE.  I miss the navigation birds. I miss trying to figure out where the next Island was.

And I think we need official servers back. I met most of my friends out in the wilds.. Now we are all warehoused in our little groups. 

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

On 2/11/2020 at 3:26 AM, Adam Snellgrove said:

There's so much that'll be able to be done with the servers. Exploration was always meant to be a 1 - 4 player experience, not a persistent MMO for tens and hundreds of people and the servers aren't up to the task. We will do our best to optimize what we can, but there's just so much, that can be done. Hopefully removing the persistent avatars will help with this.

It's this bit here that does drive a lot of concern for P1 members. The more we chat the more we feel as though, even though most of us have moved on to the editor, the explore is the heart of Ylands. However, that heart is incomplete without great multiplayer servers. Ark did it, Minecraft did it and I have faith that one day Ylands will too. I hope the devs will always know how passionate we are about multiplayer explore. 

[RedEagle_P1. 905]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:13 AM, Adam Snellgrove said:

But as I said, Exploration just isn't built to manage an MMO persistent type of game. We'd have to redesign the whole game for that probably. We are working on optimizations, but Exploration is made to be played with 1 - 4 players/friends, not on huge servers and so it will always eventually break if you make it into a big persistent MMO. The removal of persistent avatars will help with server survivability, but this will mostly be great for 'social hubs' or big spaces, where players can move around and do limited stuff, but with Exploration, where everyone, who comes in can build whatever wherever it is a huge strain on the server, that isn't possible to handle long term. It's like wanting a car to fly. Sure it will fly for a bit, if you drive it off a cliff and yes, we can make the cliff higher, so it'll 'fly' longer, but in the end, it will crash, because it wasn't made to fly, but drive on the open road with a couple of friends.

Don't get me wrong, I am totally in awe of what you guys are doing -- I have taken a crack and its not easy. I can't really solve these problems but just be a voice for all those voices I hear and keep sharing what I see. I know that wanting something does not necessarily make it possible. I'd love Ylands to succeed sooner rather than later and I see it happening big time if somehow multiplayer servers can be made to work. 

What I do really appreciate is your clear-cut communication. Getting the facts and making your side of things known. 

[Oswulf Leowalding 4]

I was an early access backer. Exploration is pretty vital in my opinion. I like that the game has in-built flexibility with the editor (to create whole mod-like sub-systems and events.) but I see this as a means to enhance and chisel the exploration experience for a particular game/server.

I look forward to the Exploration updates mentioned: 
* Expandable maps. (Great! I hope that with this comes slightly larger landmasses with smaller satellite masses around them. If the distance between Ylands could be significantly increased, then it would be perfect.)
* Water Physics. (Excellent. This caught me by surprise when someone on my game dug the edge of the starter Yland and it caused a trippy underwater tunnel.)

Could I also suggest the following too:
* Add functionality to the screwdriver to toggle the "pickable" property of free-placed items. (With one-way setting for the Building Blocks - ie; make non-pickable.)
* Add game options to disallow Barriers & Propeller Packs (Maybe block-owners could "unfix" their building blocks, and blocks could have a lot more health with ways of reinforcing them, instead, maybe? (especially doors.)) - I feel that Propeller packs are too OP right now. You can get one pretty quick in an exploration game and they very quickly remove a lot of difficulty. I would like to disable them; but if not - then making them slower and requiring charge at the very least would be nice. 
* More drinks! (Coffee, beer, wine etc..)  
* Capped collection backups (A rolling set of n backups for a game.)

Some more far-reaching ideas:
* Rope mechanics. (Tether things together - small boats to a dock, a horse to a post, a small boat to a larger boat) 
* Hot-Editor (Access to an instance of the Editor while playing for Characters with a Role assigned - I understand this would need to be limited to certain editor features, but being able to lock things down / move things / change entity properties on the fly would be a great addition. Currently I have to quit and create a new editor instance, then open my game file from there, then re-join my new game.)
 

[TomasGestinger 41]

On 2/24/2020 at 6:16 PM, Oswulf Leowalding said:

I was an early access backer. Exploration is pretty vital in my opinion. I like that the game has in-built flexibility with the editor (to create whole mod-like sub-systems and events.) but I see this as a means to enhance and chisel the exploration experience for a particular game/server.

I look forward to the Exploration updates mentioned: 
* Expandable maps. (Great! I hope that with this comes slightly larger landmasses with smaller satellite masses around them. If the distance between Ylands could be significantly increased, then it would be perfect.)
* Water Physics. (Excellent. This caught me by surprise when someone on my game dug the edge of the starter Yland and it caused a trippy underwater tunnel.)

Could I also suggest the following too:
* Add functionality to the screwdriver to toggle the "pickable" property of free-placed items. (With one-way setting for the Building Blocks - ie; make non-pickable.)
* Add game options to disallow Barriers & Propeller Packs (Maybe block-owners could "unfix" their building blocks, and blocks could have a lot more health with ways of reinforcing them, instead, maybe? (especially doors.)) - I feel that Propeller packs are too OP right now. You can get one pretty quick in an exploration game and they very quickly remove a lot of difficulty. I would like to disable them; but if not - then making them slower and requiring charge at the very least would be nice. 
* More drinks! (Coffee, beer, wine etc..)  
* Capped collection backups (A rolling set of n backups for a game.)

Some more far-reaching ideas:
* Rope mechanics. (Tether things together - small boats to a dock, a horse to a post, a small boat to a larger boat) 
* Hot-Editor (Access to an instance of the Editor while playing for Characters with a Role assigned - I understand this would need to be limited to certain editor features, but being able to lock things down / move things / change entity properties on the fly would be a great addition. Currently I have to quit and create a new editor instance, then open my game file from there, then re-join my new game.)
 

Thank you for the support and feedback, I'll make sure all of it gets to the right people. The editor functions would be pretty awesome to have so I'll see how difficult it would be to implement.?  And I agree with coffee, we need that energy for fighting those mutants.?

[Hunter-Over-Fire 123]

I am going to have trouble reading all of this.